Update on the status of 4 tick auto-attacking

[AmusedDragon]

Reddit Post: https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/7qteio/update_on_the_status_of_4_tick_autoattacking/

RSOF Discussion: http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?419,420,655,65981133

 

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Hey,

In general, I have refrained from commenting on 4taa (4 tick auto attacking) post RuneFest as I am a firm believer in only commenting when I have value to add. Otherwise I just sound like a broken record spouting the same stuff again and again.

However, the power and concerns over 4taa have been gradually increasing, and you have been asking for answers. Every other Friday the combat council get together to discuss hot topics and last Friday the current state of 4taa was back on the agenda as the state of it has evolved since we spoke at RuneFest.

The status of 4taa and immediate plans

Prior to RuneFest 4taa was something that only the elite were using and the numbers cited were around that of a 7% DPS increase. We all agreed that in its current state 4taa was not something we wanted to officially support, due to its obscurity and exclusivity between the styles. We did see value in a high mechanical skill based DPS increase, and the difference at the time was comparable to a style having a top tier weapon equivalent and the other styles waiting for the release of theirs. Since the DPS increase was modest, we prefer not to take away your toys, and the skill ceiling raising gameplay was desirable, we decided to keep it in game - until we could find a suitable replacement, and a way we could offer comparable gameplay to the other styles.

It is clear to see the state of 4taa at RuneFest is different to the state of it now. It is now an accepted part of the meta meaning a lot more players are doing it, the honing of it has jumped the DPS increase from 7% to 15% thanks to c4taa. Finally, and perhaps the most worrying for us is that 4taa has gone from something the best players do to squeeze out more DPS to something that is required to join PvM teams. This means that magic is the dominating style being used in group content and that 4taa is affecting the skill floor as well as the ceiling. Upping the skill ceiling and adding depth at the top is great, but not when it negatively effects the entry requirements for getting in to PvM. This shift in how 4taa is being utilised moves it from a nice addition for the top end, to a source of toxicity in the community. It is for these reasons that the council has re-considered our stance on leaving it in the game.

The outcome of the meeting we had is that we will no longer fully support 4taa in the game while we wait on the new additions. We feel that the current downsides of 4taa now outweigh the upsides of leaving it in the game.

The planned changes are:

• No longer allow your auto attack swing to be reset or more accurately go backwards outside of legacy mode. If you perform an auto attack with a rate 6 weapon it will take 6 ticks before you can auto attack again, regardless of whether you change weapon. This prevents the most glaring bug with 4taa in that you can perform auto attacks with staff damage at the same rate as a wand.

• Performing an ability will delay your auto attack swing by a minimum of 5 ticks. Just preventing the auto attack reset will not stop 4taa, only nerf its damage. You would still be able to delay by 4 ticks with a wand and then auto->ability on the same tick. By delaying autos by this much you miss out on adrenaline and DPM if you delay for the auto but still allows back to back auto->ability combos should you want to.

We have chosen not to add an auto attack ability to provide auto attack forcing to other styles as this leads to homogenising the styles and a flatter combat system overall. This would also mean adding a meta in to the game we plan on removing which feels like an incorrect approach.

---

Adding more interactive combat in place of 4taa

The idea of adding more interaction with the combat system for a small but notable DPS increase is not dead. We still plan on adding more interactivity in to the combat system and are very interested in your ideas on how you’d like this to manifest. It’s awesome to see some ideas coming from the community and I would encourage you to keep brainstorming with each other over subjects like this. We get a great deal out of hearing your ideas and they have a very real effect on our designs while they are in progress.

Since RuneFest in my spare time & TAPP I have been designing a suitable replacement for 4taa and have prototyped a few. The most extreme of these range from a simple buff that allows you to detach auto swing from abilities via manual input all the way to a crazy Osu inspired overlay which would allow you to auto-attack via high mechanical input. The initial prototyping is done and I can reveal some of ideas. The following is our current plan for adding more interactive methods to all three styles. This is all subject to change and I implore you to give feedback and suggest ideas off the back of this post. They do not have any definite numbers as they are all subject to balancing during development. I promised you at RuneFest that I’d let you know with enough time to give feedback so here we go!

Magic

• A new ability will be purchasable though the shattered worlds shop.
• This will be a new magic threshold with a dual wield requirement.
• When activated your basic abilities will reset your auto attack swing allowing you pop off spells in between your abilities. On top of this you will gain a bonus damage on your auto attacks for each unique damaging spell you use while this buff is up. The passive effect will not be removed if you switch to a staff.
• The aim of this is to retain magic’s ability to utilise spells during combat but to also actively reward more interaction during the uptime of the effect. Requiring an adrenaline cost and linking it to an ability allow us to fine tune the cost and reward of this extra DPS. This also offers a magic ability alongside the existing ranged and melee abilities to fill out a full set of abilities from shattered worlds.

Ranged

• With Solak a new ranged ability will be dropped.
• This will be a Ranged ultimate available to all ranged weapon styles.
• When activated your global cooldown is lowered from 1.8 seconds to 1.2 seconds for a short time. The cooldown of this will be longer than death’s swiftness, since you are mobile during the uptime and this isn’t just an increase in damage, but also an increase in adrenaline gain.
• Note: Revolution will not speed up while this buff is active.
• The aim of this is to bring back the feeling of 2 tick abilities in a more structured and more balanced way. If done right we expect you to alternate between this and deaths swiftness.

Melee

• Bladed dive will be able to damage an opponent when used during GCD. This was something we previously removed from the game but with a change in approach to combat comes a change in our approach to this. It was an enjoyable interaction before we removed it so I look forward to it coming back. Note: The amount of damage will not necessarily be the same as when it is used off GCD.
• We will also be releasing our first update for weapon diversity. All stabbing weapons (dagger, short sword, spear, rapier) have a chance to not incur GCD at all which will allow you to instantly attack with another ability.
• Note: Revolution will not instantly trigger an ability if this effect is applied.
• We will also convert the Kopesh of Tumeken to a stabbing weapon like its t82 counterpart.
• The aim is to provide melee with a way to unlock it from the shackles of GCD and to reward those that are paying attention.

---

I look forward to your feedback on our current plan and we’re excited to provide you with what we hope are the beginnings of a more interactive and interesting combat system.

The Combat Council

The Combat Council is a part of the RuneScape development team that dedicates some of its time to trying to improve the health of both PvM and PvP. We are Mods Chaose, Daze, Deg, Harrison, Hunter, Iago, Pi, Ramen, Ryan, Shauny, Shogun & Timbo.

 

Thoughts?

[Deathcon]

I was JUST gonna post it, i have it copied to my clipboard

 

Even though i didn't really  bother to use it im sort of sad something unique like that to master is gone but im also glad i don't have to bother using it everwhere.

 

unsure of how good/bad the new abilities seem.

 

We will also be releasing our first update for weapon diversity. All stabbing weapons (dagger, short sword, spear, rapier) have a chance to not incur GCD at all which will allow you to instantly attack with another ability.

 

I'm not sure they can come up with anything competitive for the other weapons lol.

[Cam L]

 

[Cyruss]

Rest in peace my hour and a half of practicing this x.D

[Beric]

46 minutes ago, AmusedDragon said:

We will also be releasing our first update for weapon diversity.

Can they fuck off with this

[James]

48 minutes ago, Beric said:

Can they fuck off with this

Why? One of my biggest gripes with the game has been that you are always funneled into using just one weapon type. That's boring. 

[Veggie]

That's alright I guess. Does ruin some of the potential of ancient spells compared to air surge - makes it go back to more of "ancients if you want Intercept/Shield Dome, normals default". But depending on the magic threshold's cooldown, it might still allow some AoE mage tasks to be viable - which is where 4ticking excelled the most.

 

Looking at the thread, not that surprising to me, but lazy fucks are just as toxic as irrational elitists. It's sad to see Jagex rule in favor of the incompetent fucks who make raids in 2018 a challenge. Idiocracy is real.

[Spartacus109]

im interested to see what they do with this all in all 

[Douglas]

My biggest gripe is that they are releasing stuff that reduces GCD without letting Revolution trigger the next ability until GCD hits. Apparently they think that revolution users should be rewarded for paying attention... fine, but 1) how do you explain to a new player (possibly using a cell phone) that their ability being ready to go but not firing when it's ready isn't a bug, and 2) revolution already has BIG penalties if using it at a boss and the wrong ability fires before you catch it, and 3) Revolution also cannot account for boss mechanics.

[Deathcon]

 

(Im not trying to call you out or anything im more or less explaining why)

 

 

You should be rewarded for paying attention/putting in extra effort. If you're just gonna afk you've already forfeited higher dps/kph. You need to look at it from the opposite side, why should someone who puts in more effort have the same outcome as someone who isnt even paying attention?

 

If you're bossing where revo has big penalties for firing off other abilities thats your problem for not paying enough attention to the game playing itself for you. The game isnt smart, it doesn't know you're fighting nex and to not use bleeds on blood phase unless you remove them from your bar or manually trigger other abilities to keep it from firing off bleeds.

[Veggie]

Bladed Dive is bullshit and shouldn't come back. It makes a lot less sense than 4ticking magic and it is much more "fighting the game" than 4ticking - you have to click the monster's hitbox while failing to hover over any player hitboxes or objects or familiars.

[Overvoltage]

I feel like there are much simpler solutions than what they're going through with.

 

Some of their ideas to bring other styles up to par are interesting, and we'll see how(/if) well they work, but it's worrisome that the fix to ranged is unlocked as a rare high level boss drop, and the fix to the other styles is via shattered worlds. 1.5 hours of combat vs potentially hundreds of millions of runescape gold pieces

[Veggie]

1 hour ago, Overvoltage said:

I feel like there are much simpler solutions than what they're going through with.

 

Some of their ideas to bring other styles up to par are interesting, and we'll see how(/if) well they work, but it's worrisome that the fix to ranged is unlocked as a rare high level boss drop, and the fix to the other styles is via shattered worlds. 1.5 hours of combat vs potentially hundreds of millions of runescape gold pieces

Indeed, especially considering ranged will likely still be neglected outside of RotS and Nex. Unless there's a huge incentive to range Solak. I did also see someone say something about a Salt the Wound change, but I haven't seen anything about that, and so long as Flanking is available to use at group bosses, Salt the Wound is only rarely the better choice.

[AmusedDragon]

13 hours ago, James said:

Why? One of my biggest gripes with the game has been that you are always funneled into using just one weapon type. That's boring. 

We talked a bit about this on TS and I still don't know where I stand.

 

I feel like such changes wont actually fix anything. There will probably end up being a single meta that works for most things because they'll have some balancing issue that makes a particular weapontype better than most.

[Overvoltage]

 

@Veggie

[Douglas]

14 hours ago, Deathcon said:

 

(Im not trying to call you out or anything im more or less explaining why)

 

 

You should be rewarded for paying attention/putting in extra effort. If you're just gonna afk you've already forfeited higher dps/kph. You need to look at it from the opposite side, why should someone who puts in more effort have the same outcome as someone who isnt even paying attention?

 

If you're bossing where revo has big penalties for firing off other abilities thats your problem for not paying enough attention to the game playing itself for you. The game isnt smart, it doesn't know you're fighting nex and to not use bleeds on blood phase unless you remove them from your bar or manually trigger other abilities to keep it from firing off bleeds.

"Revolution is the game playing itself for you" is a statement that is actually very damaging to the core of the game, if that is what is adopted by the developers, especially with mobile users on the horizon. There is absolutely no skill involved in simulating revolution by pressing buttons on your keyboard, that's just timing a button press for every GCD - it is excessive and it is not fun for most people. Revolution is the game's standard operation - not manual. Revolution should be the Gold Standard (tm) of combat in this game. Manual should be seen as opting to disable the basic functionality of the combat system. 

 

The fun comes from the differences in the abilities as they interact with the specific fight mechanics. The boss fight itself should provide the fun through the mechanics of the fight. Revolution should be as good as it can possibly be, because it has the disadvantage of not being able to respond to the fight mechanics. It's going to do what it's going to do every time you're in combat whether or not you're at yaka or nex or abby demons. Revolution is the default mode and should be the absolute best that they can make it. The boss fight should be plenty entertaining and that's where you can pay your attention and have your fun. 

 

If people want to pay more attention or put more effort in, let that come from the fight. Not from the core functionality of the combat system. The combat system needs to be beginner+mobile friendly.

[Veggie]

5 hours ago, Overvoltage said:

 

@Veggie

lol

1 hour ago, Douglas said:

There is absolutely no skill involved in simulating revolution by pressing buttons on your keyboard, that's just timing a button press for every GCD - it is excessive and it is not fun for most people. Revolution is the game's standard operation - not manual. Revolution should be the Gold Standard (tm) of combat in this game. Manual should be seen as opting to disable the basic functionality of the combat system. 

 

If people want to pay more attention or put more effort in, let that come from the fight. Not from the core functionality of the combat system. The combat system needs to be beginner+mobile friendly.

Mate if you're trying to troll you're doing a good job. If these are actually your thoughts on the matter, good god man your thoughts on the game suck and I'm glad you're not in charge. That's even worse than what I read on Reddit. Unfortunately for me, Reddit is, in fact, in charge.

 

Frankly the more skill you take away from the game, the more that group bossing devolves into insulting other people's intelligence rather than just their capabilities at this specific game, and the less incentive there is for competitive (aka skilled or looking to become skilled) players to play this game.

 

It's actually eerily similar to government entitlement programs/socialism. Except without the attempts to justify by explaining inequalities which can't be controlled - like being born in the United States or being born in Haiti. It's a video game, everyone has equal capabilities in-game, you're rewarded for time and effort put into the game but everyone starts from the same place. "The 1% is doing too much DPS and is too exclusive, I'm entitled to get onto their team! Jagex fix this!" And just like real life socialism, rather than leveling the field and continuing to be productive, it just means the upper class gets thrown in with the lowest common denominator. I for one look forward to the day where I deal the same DPS as someone who is in his kitchen cooking dinner. How dare I get an advantage for putting effort in? Thankfully Jagex doesn't seem to want to move in that direction at the moment.

[Douglas]

2 hours ago, Veggie said:

lol

Mate if you're trying to troll you're doing a good job. If these are actually your thoughts on the matter, good god man your thoughts on the game suck and I'm glad you're not in charge. That's even worse than what I read on Reddit. Unfortunately for me, Reddit is, in fact, in charge.

 

Frankly the more skill you take away from the game, the more that group bossing devolves into insulting other people's intelligence rather than just their capabilities at this specific game, and the less incentive there is for competitive (aka skilled or looking to become skilled) players to play this game.

 

It's actually eerily similar to government entitlement programs/socialism. Except without the attempts to justify by explaining inequalities which can't be controlled - like being born in the United States or being born in Haiti. It's a video game, everyone has equal capabilities in-game, you're rewarded for time and effort put into the game but everyone starts from the same place. "The 1% is doing too much DPS and is too exclusive, I'm entitled to get onto their team! Jagex fix this!" And just like real life socialism, rather than leveling the field and continuing to be productive, it just means the upper class gets thrown in with the lowest common denominator. I for one look forward to the day where I deal the same DPS as someone who is in his kitchen cooking dinner. How dare I get an advantage for putting effort in? Thankfully Jagex doesn't seem to want to move in that direction at the moment.

It seems it is you who has devolved into insulting others' intelligence

 

The problem isn't so much what the 1% can or can't do. The problem is what the average person on a cell phone (likely the biggest sudden infusion of new players to this game since Miniclip) are going to be able to do. Skill floor, not so much skill ceiling. If revolution being improved to fire abilities when they're off cooldown, in a fixed order of left to right, is a danger to someone's sense of skill in the game, then that someone has a false sense of skill. Pressing the next button every GCD is just flat out not skillful. You should not be rewarded for simulating revolution. You should, however, be rewarded for things that take skill and things that take knowledge. So for instance, using the right ability at the right time. Surging out of the way of Evil Dave's Ball of Ultimate Doom (tm) or whatever. Positioning your sunshine just the right way. Reacting to changing environments. 

 

How much 'attention' you pay is a joke. People who pay attention to the game will always do more damage and take less damage than those who don't. People who track what abilities they're using and save specific abilities for when they're needed will always have things turn out better for them then those who are just out to lunch. 

[Asada]

Make Metamorphosis great again ty

[Cam L]