What does The Alliance mean to you?

[Seike]

Do you think the US troops overseas wearing NATO insignia are in it because of NATO? I bet. And that's an organization that actually has utility to it, unlike TA.

Just because the thing you rally behind has connections to another thing doesn't mean you need to have them represent you. Countless members and former members of The alliance have been in it exclusively for their individual clans, not TA on any level. Would they hate on TA? Probably not. Would they care if Gladz decided to leave TA? Probably not.

There's never been a goal of TA since I've been in it. The purpose of an alliance is defense and there is no defense provided by TA. Does anyone kill a TA member thinking that some huge army will descend on them the next time they're in the wilderness? To try to organize some fiasco like that would be ridiculous. At this point most people in non-TA clans are hardly aware that The Alliance is still a formal thing. We can either spend a bunch of our resources in commitment to revive a time-proven unnecessary Alliance or we can spend those same resources to improve the clan we find ourselves in. I say continue to focus on Gladz since that's what we joined and what we'll leave if it were to ever die. TA has already died... we just haven't had the heart to admit it.

If we just happened to be in alliance with RSD would we jump at the chance to get crushed by them? I don't think an exercise in being dominated is useful to anyone involved. Which is why we save our own pride by not challenging clans we can't compete against and why we never get challenged by clans that can't compete against us.

If your aim is to disband the alliance, let's get competitive. Hopefully we'll get three more BKs out of the deal. That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that we realize it's never worked and never will work and waste everybody's time in the process of trying to force it to work.

Your view of things is thoroughly idyllic if you think people will admit their own fault before resenting the enemy. People are naturally inclined to become aggressive towards their opponents if they're taking a fight at-all seriously.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Seike

[Douglas]

US troops that wear NATO insignia while on NATO missions do not lose their identity as US troops.

"There's never been a goal of TA since I've been in it. The purpose of an alliance is defense and there is no defense provided by TA."

That's interesting that you are able to singlehandedly define the purpose of TA as defensive in order to justify your points. If there hasn't been a purpose of TA 'since you've been in it' then perhaps it needs one before others write it off completely like you have for the past five years.

"If we just happened to be in alliance with RSD would we jump at the chance to get crushed by them? I don't think an exercise in being dominated is useful to anyone involved. Which is why we save our own pride by not challenging clans we can't compete against and why we never get challenged by clans that can't compete against us."

Perhaps pride ought to be challenged. That's something we haven't done either as a single clan or as TA - step up and challenge bigger, more organized clans. We know it can be done - but it can't be done by people who aren't srs bzns and pkri with their dick in their hand, WoW and solitaire open, the TV on, the music blaring, half afk, and the cell phone going. Why is it that if you log on to RS you see people asking to go on DG floors and monster hunting and rev dungeon but never a 'lets go ask rsd/solace/df for a matched real quick, gear up guys'

"Your view of things is thoroughly idyllic if you think people will admit their own fault before resenting the enemy. People are naturally inclined to become aggressive towards their opponents if they're taking a fight at-all seriously. "

Individual 1: "Waah I'm getting sniped all to hell by these annoying snipers omfgbbq"

Individual 2: "You're doing it wrong, idiot, do it like this:"

Individual 1: " ok I'll stop being a baddie now"

After a boxing match, do two boxers with nothing else between them walk away with a hate and dislike for each other? As long as everyone is a good sport about it, it's fine. And if anyone does get out of line then it's clan leadership's job to tell them to stfu. The point is to get a one-up contest going, not a vicious "I'm going to beat your face in with your own leather vambraces :rageface:"

[Seike]

US troops that wear NATO insignia while on NATO missions do not lose their identity as US troops.

When they're working with other teams of Belgian, Swiss, French, British etc troops on a mission they're most assuredly less-representing America. I'm not claiming that participation in TA events makes you less of a Gladiator, I'm claiming that when you serve as TA you're representing something that is markedly different from the Gladiatorz. You are represented equally by people whom you don't know and have little jurisdiction to harness should they misrepresent you. If TA gets into a massive returning fight and needs Gladz to assist, the situation isn't necessarily being handled by hands you deem competent to follow as we do by following in our own clan. It's very easy to lose sight of exactly what you're representing when you have little control in what's going on.

That's interesting that you are able to singlehandedly define the purpose of TA as defensive in order to justify your points. If there hasn't been a purpose of TA 'since you've been in it' then perhaps it needs one before others write it off completely like you have for the past five years.

The better part of eight, but who's counting?

"We can either spend a bunch of our resources in commitment to revive a time-proven unnecessary Alliance or we can spend those same resources to improve the clan we find ourselves in."

Perhaps pride ought to be challenged. That's something we haven't done either as a single clan or as TA - step up and challenge bigger, more organized clans.

We have done this so very many times, Doug. You've seen it unfold, I'm sure. Every time we get on a little streak of wins we bite off more than we can chew off a clan above us and then face the reality of demoralization following losses. Progress on the long term requires careful planning- this isn't something we can just throw together on a night's whim. The more we run off half-cocked into battle the more we're going to get severely burned for it. Sometimes our PK leaders have been reckless in their approach to frivolous wilderness pursuits and nothing makes me more irritated. There are severe consequences to wielding a clan as a tool in the wilderness just because you're bored.

After a boxing match, do two boxers with nothing else between them walk away with a hate and dislike for each other?

Though not the case in every single event, the answer in general to this question is an absolute "yes." There are personal differences and petty trash talking between competitors all the time. There is no assumption that there's nothing between them. As you said it was that way with BK and Gladz and they left. I mark that as a great thing for both of our clans but if you think BK and Gladz were best side-by-side then certainly the "friendly" rivalry aspect didn't help with that. Things don't stay obligatorily friendly for long.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Seike

[Shakazulu]

why don't you setup a poll and see where gladz stands - if most agree with your points, then i'll make it a point to Jag leaders that you guys want out and have them address it properly

kind of out of patience for these type of debates - doug posted some ideas and you push all them down only due to your desire to end TA and frankly it's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth - i guarantee you though seike, if this happens i will not return to these boards - in the big scheme of things that probably wont matter at all to you and most of your current members

if this is to be my last post on your boards, then i should leave quoting the greatest glad ever

This is it kiddies...the war to end all wars basically. Im not going to lie or sugarcoat it, these guys arent even friends but they have one goal: To watch us fall...to see us stumble. To watch us lose. Now, I dont speak for the rest of you...or even for my own clan, but..I don't plan to live up to THEIR expectations. I dont want to give them the satisfaction I know they will get from winning this war, and frankly I dont expect them to come even close to winning...but again. I dont speak for us all, I mean, if I controlled all of the 800 possible members of the alliance, I would find myself 800 computers and log each one on and go to war myself, just to give those stupid assholes all hell...but again, I dont know where you all stand. As for me, Im gunna be there..I will even sit front row center, 3 spaces infront of the rest of the army if you like...I want this war to be the day we all mark our place in the history of Runescape. Where people will say "5 of the top 10 clans in RS decided it was time to dethrone the Alliance, but you know what...they failed." I want to put a smiley emoticon on Tip.it on our tasteful victory post, flame-less and proper as always. But most of all, I want the world of Runescape to see what I know the Alliance is:

The greatest combination of quite possibly the GREATEST 4 Clans in the History of Runescape. We have passed the point where we can just compared ourselves to the peers of our time, we are the greatest. We represent what RS used to be, and we have the power to forge what Runescape will be.

For those of you who dont know, we never named ourselves 'The Alliance', we were dubbed that. Just like being 'the man', we were and are called 'The Alliance' cause we are the best that there is to offer, no one can beat us because we dont rely on war victories to keep our loyalties, but we dont tend to lose that often.

We are respected because of our strength, and hated by it as well. Well, if they are gunna hate us, I rather we give them something to be sour about than them just whine all day long.

and to those of you thinking "Omg this is just a game"...yea it is. Baseball is a game, football is a game, basketbal is a game, and everytime I step foot on the rubber, staring 60.6 feet to the batter and raised my glove just below my eyes, I want to strike him out. I want to win, I want to win that game, just like I want to win this game. Being competitive isnt being a loser, its just human nature. Its our nature to want to excel, to strive to be better...if we didn't we would be no better than the apes from which we evolved. I can proudly say that I will pump my fist in the air when we win, cause its not about the random luck of hitting people, it will be because we came together, not as 5 separate clans, we came together as an Alliance, The Alliance, and we showed everyone the way things should be done.

on Saturday, September 25th, Im not walking into the wilderness as a Gladiator, a leader, an 'old schooler'...Im walking into the wilderness as a proud member of the Alliance, and Im walking out a victorious, proud Member of the Alliance.

I hope everyone of you will join me for that walk, it will be a site to see.

- Joseph Jennings, Gladiator, Member of The Alliance

Edited March 3, 2012 by Shakazulu

[Seike]

I'm a bit disappointed, Shak. You should know I mean you know ill-will and appreciate your point of view because of how passionately you believe in it. And by no means have I been the only opinion on this topic; many others have weighed in supporting the alliance. And I have no doubt that I am probably in a minority of people who actually would want to take action towards the stances I offered. It takes a public outcry on any subject before people would vote to pro-actively end it. We'll never have that.

But there's a point I need to make here that troubles me even more:

Suppose I did that and suppose it worked out that we wanted out and suppose you never came back. You would break your ties from us based, apparently, because of the loss of a merely formal label that our clans share. The entire time I've been suggesting that if we truly shared the comradeship that we think we do that it should go much deeper than the label and our friendships would carry on despite any possible departure from that irrelevant official label. What we do as a clan and what we do as individuals are completely separate things. But if you leave us just to make a point, it's also demonstrating to me what kept you here in the first place.

That's a conclusion that I wouldn't believe, however. I believe you truly are here for us not just the idea of us as your allies. And for that reason, you shouldn't let my stance on TA poison your motivation to remain friends with myself and, more-importantly, all other gladiatorz you come here for. I want to reaffirm that you are welcome here from all us not just because you're an ally but because we are honored to share your company as an individual.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Seike

[Novaname]

TA isn't dead lol.

[*Tom*]

The Alliance is essentially useless nowadays. It literally offers no benefits and I have personally seen many negatives come of it in recent years. In the past, yes it was a useful concept, because there was a point behind it. Now there is no need for it.

Rafi said that it is your RuneScape legacy (I agree with this) but saying that it ties everyone together nowadays? Who exactly is everyone? Like the 12 people (that are actually active and still in TA) that maybe still play when fighting The Alliance was actually fighting a powerhouse. I have seen so much more hostility (both in public and private areas) primarily between Gladz and THE then I have seen any form of comradery(sp?).

To be completely honest, with the current state of the clan world, disbanding from the Alliance would actually be a beneficial idea for Gladz. It would offer another opponent similar in size/strength and it would almost indefinitely immediately start out as a great rivalry. There are constantly members from both clans already who claim they are so much better etc.

Disband a useless alliance and start up a nice rivalry. Rivalries spark activity, it would be beneficial for both clans overall. Also, just because you aren't officially allied with someone doesn't mean you still can't do the occasional joint pk trip or whatnot.

[*Tom*]

Also, you don't need to be in the same clan, or allied to have fun and be friends. If you aren't able to do that, you need to evaluate your stance and why you are playing this game. As a clan official in both Brutality and Violent Resolution, I had very close relationships with many of our biggest rivals. Some of my best friends at the time were in Reign of Terror, Damage Inc., Divine Forces etc.. We had "community" events with them and many other clans frequently, PvM competitions, Dungeoneering competitions, all of that.

The game is what you make it. If holding onto something that made TA a powerhouse like 6 years ago is all that is keeping pretty much the last real alliance together, well then that is just damn foolish.

[Moto Bro]

To me it represents a time when Clans actually needed to have allies to survive. Nowadays it's not so common but it's great that all 4 clans are still alive after all these years. And it's always nice to have The Oranges Anti-Crash for us. And I am always happy to help anti-crash for them too.

[Memphus]

The Alliance means we have the ability to have differing opinions and views, and intensely debate them on these boards, but still go out there and be best friends when it's all done.

I disagree with everything Seike has to say here 100%, but I still love him to peices.

[Shakazulu]

I'm a bit disappointed, Shak. You should know I mean you know ill-will and appreciate your point of view because of how passionately you believe in it. And by no means have I been the only opinion on this topic; many others have weighed in supporting the alliance. And I have no doubt that I am probably in a minority of people who actually would want to take action towards the stances I offered. It takes a public outcry on any subject before people would vote to pro-actively end it. We'll never have that.

But there's a point I need to make here that troubles me even more:

Suppose I did that and suppose it worked out that we wanted out and suppose you never came back. You would break your ties from us based, apparently, because of the loss of a merely formal label that our clans share. The entire time I've been suggesting that if we truly shared the comradeship that we think we do that it should go much deeper than the label and our friendships would carry on despite any possible departure from that irrelevant official label. What we do as a clan and what we do as individuals are completely separate things. But if you leave us just to make a point, it's also demonstrating to me what kept you here in the first place.

That's a conclusion that I wouldn't believe, however. I believe you truly are here for us not just the idea of us as your allies. And for that reason, you shouldn't let my stance on TA poison your motivation to remain friends with myself and, more-importantly, all other gladiatorz you come here for. I want to reaffirm that you are welcome here from all us not just because you're an ally but because we are honored to share your company as an individual.

I really apologize for my last post - it was extremely dramatic and over the top - I know you didn't mean any harm and I also replied back to your pm

You're right though on an important point, I'm really not here for our official alliance - i'm mainly here cause Gladz has been a home for me nearly as long as my own clan - been in Jagz since april 2002 and gladz since july 2003 - i have too many good memories with many different gladz over the years and i can't let that go so easily - hell i nearly joined in 2004 prior to rs2 beta launch but white jaguar convinced me to stay in jagz

Edited March 4, 2012 by Shakazulu

[JohnLegend]

It's troubling that these are the many sentiments, but I knew this anyway. There are some truths to be acknowledged; The Alliance is not as useful as it once was; the bonds between The Alliance are not as strong as they used to be; the goals of The Alliance by part and by whole are neither similar or even relevant to each other; a lot of us are growing old, maybe too old.

I personally believe, from observation and interview, that Seike, Ethan S (who has opinions which are always welcome; don't think otherwise), and Tooheyy represent the majority view of The Alliance between both the entire being and between it's two active warring arms -- unfortunately. However I can't be hypocritical; I advocate growing old and growing out; I believe one of the problems across the entire alliance is that the leadership has grown too old, refusing to pass down power to the youth of the game; therefore this may mean that their ideals of "tradition" and "camaraderie" fallen into a refusal to grow old.

The future of The Alliance is uncertain to me. It's weak. It's old. It's misunderstood. It's disrespected domestically and abroad. I felt comfortable putting this topic where it is not because I can't put it anywhere else but because there's nothing to hide. Irony: the most blind to the death of The Alliance are some of it's very members dying inside it.

To me The Alliance is greater than its individual parts. In the mold of a traditional alliance I think the members represent their clan, that clan then represents a greater bond of power and friendship between players of the same game. A lot of the cons stated I believe have, then serious but now insignificant and forgotten, external elements that propagated into the events that ink this history. I have absolutely no doubt that The Alliance can work; however there is much work to be done. Unfortunately it's more people work than clan work and we're not all little kids anymore.

[Joe Jenninz]

Can I reveal a deep, dark secret?

The Alliance was never 'useful'. The use of air quotes is truly important here.

Sure it let us fight in a big war against some baddies. But it wasn't some tool that helped us become some great and all powerful clan.

The deeper, most darkest of secrets? That was never it's purpose.

Depending on who is writing, you get different variations on the origin of the bonds between the clans. Some people, like Acid, like to write like RS is a real time war that he lived through. But realistically, it started because people became friends. And in a perfect world, any friend you had through RS would be a Gladiator but they weren't. That doesn't mean you wanted to be enemies.

The Alliance as a useful 'military' force - as the term alliance usually implies/is connected to - was for those truly bad moments. Instead of using old LOTR analogies, we can update to the Avengers. The Alliance was the Avengers. It was meant for all the clans to go out and have highly successful independent comics but every now and then we'd have to come together to take out a force that none of us could battle individually. And not just to test our strength - it was usually a big baddie that threatened or influenced the way we liked to play the game. The Alliance were like any friends you have in the real world - they had your back when the going got tough. And just because the world may lack big baddies or the game may not present big baddies with full out wars anymore, doesn't mean you need to cancel your membership in the Avengers. It just means you get called into active duty less often. Seems like all the perks and none of the risks to me.

Seike is right in one sense - the game has truly evolved now. To be honest, I don't think clans are useful in the current RS system. There is almost 0 motivation to work together in the game outside a few dungeons or a few bosses. For those few instances where cooperation is needed, why deal with being a full time clan member when you can just round up random team mates and do that relatively well after a few practice rounds? The way the game works now, you are truly putting yourself at a disadvantage to train with someone since it limits the maximum amount of XP one could gain if it is split among two people. The way we used to play the game, where multiple people would train at one spot, even sacrifice the rate of XP gained, to socialize has been made obsolete by things like enhanced private chat, use of TS, clan chat, or RS players that incorporate IRC to the interface.

Also like Seike said, there are so many alternatives to PVP that I again don't understand why clans need to exist at all.

But they do. And people (not as many as in the olden day but many) continue to join them. Because most don't usually join a clan as a stepping stone towards SOLELY greater individual gain. You join a clan for a sense of community. To meet people. To interact with people on a less superficial level. This in some ways helps you play RS but in many ways it probably slows you down since, while trying to be an active member of the clan, we can take away from you doing individual activities that best suit you. But people make that sacrifice for the gains in other areas.

The Alliance, in my opinion, has always been that way. I sacrificed the ability to fight these 4 other clans, to try and convince members I liked to leave their clans and join mine, to use them as solely stepping stones to my success because I wanted and valued relationships I built with people. And yes, many of those people, myself included, faded over time but when I am active, I enjoy still calling these people my allies in honor of the history and how important it was both to our clan and to my own individual playing experience. I do honestly believe that being allied with these clans greatly influenced us and helped mold us into the clan we were throughout our history.

Some may read that as a contradiction to my statement earlier about the Alliance not being a tool to make us a super power but I don't see it that way - we didn't form the Alliance to individually become the greatest clan of all time - we wanted to be the greatest clan of all time before, during, and after joining the Alliance. We joined the Alliance because it was more a formal name to give the fact that our 4 clans were basically cousins (as Max said). And kissing cousins at that. We had friends left and right in most clans and when we ushered new clans in, we did so under the mantra of the more the merrier in hopes that we had found like souls to make the fun we were having even better.

I don't speak for the current days but I honestly think the arguments for its lack of 'usefulness' are not reasons to leave or break up the Alliance. If being in the Alliance was ever truly harmful to the viability of our clan, I would trust the leaders to assess the situation and break ties if necessary but as you've said, for something to cause that sort of threat it has to be far more important and useful than The Alliance in modern RS. I guess I'm saying that if you say the Alliance is useless, you are not making an argument to me that it should be dissolved. I'd use a cliche saying here like "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but that would be lame.

I do think Shaka (hi buddy) and Seike just differ fundamentally on that issue - what to do with something that simply is instead of something that is actively harming you. If both agreed that the Alliance was toxic and killing all 4 clans involved, i do believe both of you would be in absolute favor of either fixing the issues or leaving to preserve the health of your individual clans. But let us all be honest here, any truly major hardship faced by any alliance clan is caused by about 20 other things besides being a part of The Alliance. When our applications slow down, it isn't because we're in The Alliance or that The Alliance doesn't do much of epic note anymore - it is because the game is changing.

As an old person looking in - there are way more important changes to be made than leaving the Alliance. The Alliance was never supposed to be this - it was friends who had their own things to do but if you ever need a ride at 4 am because you were pantless and broke, you could call them. It wasn't something you had to 'try' at. You had events with other clans because it was fun to do. And so long as a few people find it fun in each clan, it takes away from nothing else as far as I can see.

In closing, I'm old and I just like old things. Old old old. /sarcasm

Sincerely,

The Greatest Gladiator Ever (best nickname/title ever that I can never truly accept because I think that title belongs to either Jerico, The Rocket, or Sneaky)

[Chewy]

i always have thought that we should grow together in the pvp aspect together in TA. All clans are run very differently with different mindsets of different leaders and clanmates. It would be dope if one day we could all unite and shit on top top 5 rsc ranked clans imo.

[Douglas]

i always have thought that we should grow together in the pvp aspect together in TA. All clans are run very differently with different mindsets of different leaders and clanmates. It would be dope if one day we could all unite and shit on top top 5 rsc ranked clans imo.

(Forgot what I said earlier in the thread.)

We do the big fights from time to time; it usually ends up being when our clans individually gain power/rank/numbers. However, one large clan tends to win against four smaller clans, if only because they're all used to fighting together with high options. So a fight like that for us is more for the thrill of the fight and the fun of the game than just 'gotta win, gotta win'.

Fortunately, with a shrinking clan world, other clans closing, and our trend over the years of keeping roughly the same number of members, we're passively gaining rank/power in comparison to other clans.

We could do more actively, though. Gladiatorz, if you're interested in helping with active recruitment and increasing pulls and such, give Seike a PM and ask him if you can join in on the PR team, they've got some good stuff going over there. Can't say that the work is rewarding or easy, and you've got a half-decent chance of burning yourself out if you go at it full force, but it's probably one of the best things a Gladiator could do for his clan in his spare time.

How are CJ and TMRD doing, btw? Haven't heard from you guys in a while

[Memphus]

Can I reveal a deep, dark secret?

The Alliance was never 'useful'. The use of air quotes is truly important here.

Sure it let us fight in a big war against some baddies. But it wasn't some tool that helped us become some great and all powerful clan.

I disagree with that. I do believe that The Alliance is a huge factor in what made Gladz great. I for one, tracked the Alliance 10 years ago, came to the meetings and wars despite being in none of the clans, and wanted nothing more than to be a part of something so great. That is why I eventually joined Gladz about 8 years ago, and I suspect I am by no means the only one to join Gladz for this reason. To be a part of something great, The Alliance.

Sure, it has lost it's greatness. But so has the entire clan community (RE: PKRI), as well as Runescape itself.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Memphus

[Seike]

In closing, I'm old and I just like old things. Old old old.

That's all I got out of that

hah, just kidding. Well-said.

[Joe Jenninz]

Can I reveal a deep, dark secret?

The Alliance was never 'useful'. The use of air quotes is truly important here.

Sure it let us fight in a big war against some baddies. But it wasn't some tool that helped us become some great and all powerful clan.

I disagree with that. I do believe that The Alliance is a huge factor in what made Gladz great. I for one, tracked the Alliance 10 years ago, came to the meetings and wars despite being in none of the clans, and wanted nothing more than to be a part of something so great. That is why I eventually joined Gladz about 8 years ago, and I suspect I am by no means the only one to join Gladz for this reason. To be a part of something great, The Alliance.

Sure, it has lost it's greatness. But so has the entire clan community (RE: PKRI), as well as Runescape itself.

Don't confuse me saying that it was never meant to be a military juggernaut that it also means it wasn't meant to be great. It was and continues to be the greatest Alliance ever seen in this game.

[ReDrOc]

omg wall of text