Invention Information and Discussion

[AmusedDragon]

 

I think it’s important to make a distinction between broken and different. The development of the modern combat system as opposed to the old system (EOC and pre-EOC respectively) introduced a different game play mechanism. The notion that I think you’re bringing up is that not all subsystems of the game integrated perfectly into the new combat system within the initial period of the combat system release. In this regard, you’re absolutely right – EOC did not fit into many of the preexisting methods of how things were done in the past. Did EOC break the game? Not in my opinion, no.

 

Being content about the way things are currently done (and dismissing any additions that could change the way things are) pretty much disallows any sort of growth in the game. One thing that I believe Invention can bring to the game is variety – and a lot of it. The differences between the upper echelon weaponry up until this point are based upon combat triangle use. From that basis, they have varied the speed (for example one-handed weaponry versus two-handed weaponry), accompanied by other very minute tweaks, but I do not believe the variety of weaponry in the game is at a level that keeps things interesting.

 

Change is good - I don't think a skill that touches on literally every single facet of gameplay is a good way to bring change to the game. Also there is no distinction between broken and different. The game was broken, the game will be broken. After they spend the next year fixing it we can call it different and hopefully better.

 

 

 

You noted that the mechanisms of boss fights or just combat against creatures in general is trivial; that they in their own right do not require weapons with new abilities or damage. That combat is at some sort of false pinnacle of game play. It is perhaps because we have limited what our weapons can do that subsequently monsters have remained very…well, the same. With EOC we saw a degradation in the uniqueness of weapons. Some weaponry (e.g. poisoned weaponry, weaponry with retained special attacks, etc.) have stood the test of conglomeration and assimilation that EOC brought. However for the most part the unique abilities available from one weapon to another aren't that differed or varied in my opinion.

 

Based upon all of this, I ask: Why NOT have weapons with new abilities (inherent to the weapon, not abilities used through the use of adrenaline) and perhaps new, unique points of utilization? Why NOT be able to have, even marginally, a sense of customizability going into a fight?

 

It would almost appear that some fear making weaponry more “useful” or make subsequent combat “easier,” but at the same time don’t want those things removed once they are brought into the game. I'm not really sure what the intended outcome that is desired provided that is one's mindset...

 

I don't think I explained myself well enough here. I'm not calling current combat the pinnacle of gameplay. I'm totally down for newer bosses and monsters that actually require the use of these new perks and abilities but that doesn't change the fact that Jagex has already stated they intend on leaving most all older content as is.

 

Also let's be honest. Customization through the use of a perk system is going to contain perks that are just /obviously/ more desirable over other perks. I sense less diversification of weaponry used for things than Jagex is leading on. Especially if all the content that will make use of these new things is yet to be released.

 

 

 

 

If we approach updates with a precautionary perspective to the point we say don’t create this, things will absolutely stay as they are. You will strive to attain that which exists and that which everyone else has, and nothing more. Invention in its presented form opens up new avenues for game play rather than sticking to the drum-tattering monotony of that which exists today.

 

tl;dr:

“The greatest mistake you can make in life is to be continually fearing you will make one.” I know it’s Runescape, but I still think the mentality aptly stands in this example. I see every reason to give Invention and other future skills of the type a shot.

 

Nah, I'm afraid. Jagex in all of their livestreams and announcements have given me zero confidence in them concerning this new skill. They've changed their mind on many things and have shown concepts (grenades, freaking grenades) that obviously have little thought put into them.

 

I don't think they know what they really want to do with this skill. That's why it was entirely scrapped before - but for some reason they picked it back up.

 

The scope of the skill isn't narrow enough. It combines three skills, and takes on combat, skilling, and the entire economy. 

 

I'm going to give this skill a shot. I'm excited for a new skill. I'm just pretty damn sure it's gonna take awhile to really add to the game like EoC did. If they don't do it right I also see it being as useless as Divination is.

Edited October 7, 2015 by AmusedDragon

[LiquidSwords]

I'm going to give this skill a shot. I'm excited for a new skill. I'm just pretty damn sure it's gonna take awhile to really add to the game like EoC did. If they don't do it right I also see it being as useless as Divination is.

At this point, I'd say div has more use than smithing, construction (save gilded altars, armor stands, and quest uses), and thieving. Thanks to divine rocktail bubbles, I stay stocked on fish. Plus the exp from divine locations is nice. And just look at that cape, it's amazing.  But I suppose that bit is a matter of opinion.

 

Invention is supposed to use div and smithing, along with crafting, so they won't be as useless anymore thankfully.

 

Edit: Apparently it's crafting and not fletching. Whichever, fixed it.

Edited October 7, 2015 by LiquidSwords

[Commando NDF]

 

Change is good - I don't think a skill that touches on literally every single facet of gameplay is a good way to bring change to the game. Also there is no distinction between broken and different. The game was broken, the game will be broken. After they spend the next year fixing it we can call it different and hopefully better.

 

 

Can you provide examples to support the claim that EoC broke the game? How do you define a "broken" game?

 

 

 

I don't think I explained myself well enough here. I'm not calling current combat the pinnacle of gameplay. I'm totally down for newer bosses and monsters that actually require the use of these new perks and abilities but that doesn't change the fact that Jagex has already stated they intend on leaving most all older content as is.

 

Also let's be honest. Customization through the use of a perk system is going to contain perks that are just /obviously/ more desirable over other perks. I sense less diversification of weaponry used for things than Jagex is leading on. Especially if all the content that will make use of these new things is yet to be released.

 

 

The Invention skill, from what I've read, is based upon upper-tier skills and equipment. Existing content, for example that which is lower than Tier-70, should not be changed - I think Jagex has it right in that regard. Older content needs to be accessible, enjoyed, and not "broken" for people who do not have the skill requirements to utilize Invention. This does not imply obsolesence of older content but instead a smooth integration. There will always be bumps in the road with the development of new systems and clashes in compatibility, again, this does not equate to "broken." 

 

Yes, it is understandable that some perks versus others will be more preferred or effective. However, I feel that this preference for a perk is highly situational and will most definitely be consequential. For example, you will not want to utilize a highly effective fire effect on a weapon for a lava boss, despite its efficacy in other facets of the game. Perks that appear to be highly effective in increasing your damage on a weapon could have the consequence that it lowers your defense as well. Situationally and consequentially, the balance of perks would not have an obvious desire over one another in all applications. If you accompany this with the tiers of perks or abilities that you can place onto weapons, you have a fairly balanced system on your hands.

 

 

 

Nah, I'm afraid. Jagex in all of their livestreams and announcements have given me zero confidence in them concerning this new skill. They've changed their mind on many things and have shown concepts (grenades, freaking grenades) that obviously have little thought put into them.

 

I don't think they know what they really want to do with this skill. That's why it was entirely scrapped before - but for some reason they picked it back up.

 

The scope of the skill isn't narrow enough. It combines three skills, and takes on combat, skilling, and the entire economy. 

 

I'm going to give this skill a shot. I'm excited for a new skill. I'm just pretty damn sure it's gonna take awhile to really add to the game like EoC did. If they don't do it right I also see it being as useless as Divination is.

 

 

I don't think it's fair to discount something like grenades without knowing how their mechanic is used. They could be used like a time-based detonation such as the Dominion Tower mines or be a thrown object with an explosion such as chinchompas. I'd also like to point out that the notion of a space pig flying into Gielinor and granting us the ability to kill raids bosses by itself is a silly notion. Combined with the game itself and the environment by which it abides we have a pretty cool concept. 

 

Invention was pitted against Elf City in a player vote for which content should be worked on next. Elf City won that vote, and thus the development of Invention was scrapped to place focus on Elf City. For the most part, I would say Elf City and its integration into the game has been a complete success. I enjoy it, and it is one of my favorite additions to the game in recent history. The idea of Invention perhaps struck developers at Jagex enough for them to pick up the concept once more and push for its development and introduction into the game. 

 

Invention integrates crafting, smithing, and divination in order to increase the use of all of those skills for the purpose of developing upper echelon weaponry. For example, smithing was, in effect, inert because of the falling off of creation at rune armors and weaponry. The economy is impacted dramatically regardless of what skill is introduced into the game until people can become accustomed to the skill / minigame / etc. The Runescape economy is not a "natural" phenomenon - it is something crafted and manipulated at will. Modifying it through the introduction of Invention would be no different than that which was done in the past. 

[AmusedDragon]

 

Can you provide examples to support the claim that EoC broke the game? How do you define a "broken" game?

 

- LP Levels on mobs not being updated

- Quest Bosses not being updated (They literally just fixed the Dominion Tower bosses, took a few years)

- 200 CMB as max level, which was obtainable through a few skills making everyone maxed combat essentially even with multiple combat stats well below 99

- Tag for loot, nevermind damage dealt (Still an issue)

- Too many boss immunities (Still an issue)

 

I remember a lot of issues with tons of abilities when they were first out as well. Way too many to count. Most all have been fixed now though.

 

 

The Invention skill, from what I've read, is based upon upper-tier skills and equipment. Existing content, for example that which is lower than Tier-70, should not be changed - I think Jagex has it right in that regard. Older content needs to be accessible, enjoyed, and not "broken" for people who do not have the skill requirements to utilize Invention. This does not imply obsolesence of older content but instead a smooth integration. There will always be bumps in the road with the development of new systems and clashes in compatibility, again, this does not equate to "broken." 

 

Yes, it is understandable that some perks versus others will be more preferred or effective. However, I feel that this preference for a perk is highly situational and will most definitely be consequential. For example, you will not want to utilize a highly effective fire effect on a weapon for a lava boss, despite its efficacy in other facets of the game. Perks that appear to be highly effective in increasing your damage on a weapon could have the consequence that it lowers your defense as well. Situationally and consequentially, the balance of perks would not have an obvious desire over one another in all applications. If you accompany this with the tiers of perks or abilities that you can place onto weapons, you have a fairly balanced system on your hands.

 

 

This makes me curious as to how easy it will be to switch up perks on weapons. What if you have the materials to make a "perk" and put it on drygores but then you want to make use of the same perk at the same monster with a nox staff...

 

I wonder if we will have to create each "perk" as an item or if they will be unlockable and then easily made in mass amounts to be added to any and all weapons.

 

 

I don't think it's fair to discount something like grenades without knowing how their mechanic is used. They could be used like a time-based detonation such as the Dominion Tower mines or be a thrown object with an explosion such as chinchompas. I'd also like to point out that the notion of a space pig flying into Gielinor and granting us the ability to kill raids bosses by itself is a silly notion. Combined with the game itself and the environment by which it abides we have a pretty cool concept. 

 

Invention was pitted against Elf City in a player vote for which content should be worked on next. Elf City won that vote, and thus the development of Invention was scrapped to place focus on Elf City. For the most part, I would say Elf City and its integration into the game has been a complete success. I enjoy it, and it is one of my favorite additions to the game in recent history. The idea of Invention perhaps struck developers at Jagex enough for them to pick up the concept once more and push for its development and introduction into the game. 

 

Invention integrates crafting, smithing, and divination in order to increase the use of all of those skills for the purpose of developing upper echelon weaponry. For example, smithing was, in effect, inert because of the falling off of creation at rune armors and weaponry. The economy is impacted dramatically regardless of what skill is introduced into the game until people can become accustomed to the skill / minigame / etc. The Runescape economy is not a "natural" phenomenon - it is something crafted and manipulated at will. Modifying it through the introduction of Invention would be no different than that which was done in the past. 

 

I really don't want to be chucking grenades in my supposed fantasy/magical medieval game. ;_;

 

Also I never said Elf City wasn't awesome. Invention lost the poll cause none of us, or Jagex for that matter, had or have any really clue what it is.

 

They are actually doing a mining and smithing rework next year. Can you believe the waste of dev time that'll be? No idea how they can update those skills to work in the current game. I have no idea why they think that's worth updating especially if they are doing invention.

[James]

They are actually doing a mining and smithing rework next year. Can you believe the waste of dev time that'll be? No idea how they can update those skills to work in the current game. I have no idea why they think that's worth updating especially if they are doing invention.

Because the skill has been outdated for +11 years. I'm aware this falls under the category of "change for the sake of change", but I'd more consider it "doing what we should have done a decade ago...sorry!"

[Gladz]

Haven't really followed the hype train on this. JaGeX will be JaGeX and push out the new skill without (thoroughly) testing half of it, and we the players will rant and post topics until things come in our favor. Regardless, many of us will continue to train the skill and play the game whether we support it or not.

[Legendary DJ]

Haven't really followed the hype train on this. JaGeX will be JaGeX and push out the new skill without (thoroughly) testing half of it, and we the players will rant and post topics until things come in our favor. Regardless, many of us will continue to train the skill and play the game whether we support it or not.

At the end of the day that's what it comes down to. I don't expect Jagex to release a perfect skill because lets be honest with ourselves here, no one can make something that will satisfy everyone. It just doesn't work like that. Just look at Dungeoneering for example. There are people to this day who still believe that DG should be a minigame and not a skill. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I just think that before I can make an opinion on whether I like or hate invention that I need more information and actual exposure to the skill.

And as far as the testing goes, I agree with you Bob, most of the content that is produced isn't fully tested. I have a feeling Jagex does that on purpose because they want to get the players involved in it so they can give feedback back to Jagex on what's working and isn't.

[Gladz]

And as far as the testing goes, I agree with you Bob, most of the content that is produced isn't fully tested. I have a feeling Jagex does that on purpose because they want to get the players involved in it so they can give feedback back to Jagex on what's working and isn't.

JaGeX created a Beta for these type of things... unsure why it isn't being used.

[LiquidSwords]

 

Haven't really followed the hype train on this. JaGeX will be JaGeX and push out the new skill without (thoroughly) testing half of it, and we the players will rant and post topics until things come in our favor. Regardless, many of us will continue to train the skill and play the game whether we support it or not.

And as far as the testing goes, I agree with you Bob, most of the content that is produced isn't fully tested. I have a feeling Jagex does that on purpose because they want to get the players involved in it so they can give feedback back to Jagex on what's working and isn't.

 

I don't think so, I think it's just laziness. They some how manage to break something in some updates that has nothing to do with released/updated content, and most of the time the content itself is flawed. They rush these things into the game and leave it for ninja team to fix a week later.

 

They wanted us to get involved with the polls with is never used anymore.

[AmusedDragon]

 

They are actually doing a mining and smithing rework next year. Can you believe the waste of dev time that'll be? No idea how they can update those skills to work in the current game. I have no idea why they think that's worth updating especially if they are doing invention.

Because the skill has been outdated for +11 years. I'm aware this falls under the category of "change for the sake of change", but I'd more consider it "doing what we should have done a decade ago...sorry!"

 

 

Mining and Smithing being reworked is like adding a combustion engine to a horse pulled carriage. It's cool, but we already have cars. (As in, we already have many tiers and sets of gear way above what you can currently make with smithing)

 

I thought the point of invention was to actually give these skills a bit of of use in that they were a requirement to do invention.

 

 

And as far as the testing goes, I agree with you Bob, most of the content that is produced isn't fully tested. I have a feeling Jagex does that on purpose because they want to get the players involved in it so they can give feedback back to Jagex on what's working and isn't.

JaGeX created a Beta for these type of things... unsure why it isn't being used.

 

 

Matt, Nolan, and I actually talked about this in the CC for a bit. It'd probably be a bad idea to introduce a new skill in beta as it'd effect live game prices and the all too fun race to max level if people figure things out in the beta first.

[Moto Bro]

 

All I want is for them to combine hunter, farming, and construction so I can have a farm.

A farm extension to the POH would be sick. Buy chickens and cows, stick 'em in a pen, grow a marijuana carrot patch, etc.

 

I agree that would be awesome, especially if it came out alongside the Mining & Smithing reworks. I'd like 2016 to be the year of improving current skills and content that's already in the game.

[Pizzas]

.....So am I going to have to be rich if I want to go for 99? Not willing to spend more than 80m on 99.

[AmusedDragon]

.....So am I going to have to be rich if I want to go for 99? Not willing to spend more than 80m on 99.

 

There is no buyable skill in game that is 80M Most of them are far above that.

 

It does said in the sources that you will get most of your xp for USING the items you make and not breaking down and making items.

[Pizzas]

 

.....So am I going to have to be rich if I want to go for 99? Not willing to spend more than 80m on 99.

 

There is no buyable skill in game that is 80M Most of them are far above that.

 

It does said in the sources that you will get most of your xp for USING the items you make and not breaking down and making items.

 

I spent like 1.5gp / xp on summoning I think... granite lobsters all the way to 99 on amlodd with voice of seren on dxp / enlightenment. Cooking is definitely under 80m. Pretty sure green dhide shields to 99 crafting is under 80m which is what I did, but I get the point. Smithing was under 80m for me with corrupted ore + protean bars and clan citadel for the last level.

 

Con / herb / smith / farm are all warbands skills so I'm not sure how to rank them since I think its feasible to get 99 that way.

 

Prayer was definitely over 80m. A fast way of summoning / crafting would be over 80m. Silverhawks to 99 agility would be way over 80m. Fletching is probably over 80m I think if you use the fastest method.

 

Maybe I'm just a cheapo. Thanks for the opinion though. I get your point. I was just really hoping I wouldn't have to drop 80m+ on a new skill. D:

[Beric]

It does said in the sources that you will get most of your xp for USING the items you make and not breaking down and making items.

I hope this means it'll be fun to train.

[Bobby]

 

.....So am I going to have to be rich if I want to go for 99? Not willing to spend more than 80m on 99.

 

There is no buyable skill in game that is 80M Most of them are far above that.

 

It does said in the sources that you will get most of your xp for USING the items you make and not breaking down and making items.

 

firemaking using willows to 85, then magics to 99. thats closer to 35-40 mill depending on the cost of logs and xp.